SCP disk images !

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Jeff_HxC2001 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:26 pm

You can also use MagView to directly see the tracks on the disk :

Here is my try result (picture done with a low cost/50$ x400 "microscope"):
Image 004.jpg


Image1.png


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... iew%29.jpg

:wink:
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:42 am

http://www.indiamart.com/emeindian/magn ... lyzer.html
They dont even give a price ;)

Using a spray in an idea ... but where does the dust go ?

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:34 pm

Anybody can make image of Wizball Ocean Ed?
Preferably Kryoflux and of course 5 rev min
some interesting prot
thanks

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby JimDrew » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:05 pm

There is a 5 rev version in the Atari section on retrobackup - in SCP format of course.
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:39 am

Perfect
Thanks

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Stefan jL » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:30 pm

I cant make any new image of Time of Lore since i broke my scpro, but i have an older dump i did with my Sony drive... you can check that one out if you think it will show a different result:
/not_working/timeoflore_rev5_sony_acdc.7z
Image

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby kodak80 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:18 pm

Stefan jL wrote:I cant make any new image of Time of Lore since i broke my scpro, but i have an older dump i did with my Sony drive... you can check that one out if you think it will show a different result:
/not_working/timeoflore_rev5_sony_acdc.7z


I have downloaded this SCP and AUFIT converts it to an STX which loads in Hitari. Interestingly, it would not boot in Hitari with EmuTOS. It booted fine once I used TOS 1.04. Hope this helps. I will load the SCP onto a floppy later today and test it in my STFM.
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:45 pm

Stefan jL wrote:since i broke my scpro
what have you done ? 8O

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:48 pm

kodak80 wrote:
Stefan jL wrote:I cant make any new image of Time of Lore since i broke my scpro, but i have an older dump i did with my Sony drive... you can check that one out if you think it will show a different result:
/not_working/timeoflore_rev5_sony_acdc.7z


I have downloaded this SCP and AUFIT converts it to an STX which loads in Hitari. Interestingly, it would not boot in Hitari with EmuTOS. It booted fine once I used TOS 1.04. Hope this helps. I will load the SCP onto a floppy later today and test it in my STFM.

thanks I will test
and please Hatari :cry:

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby kodak80 » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:22 am

DrCoolZic wrote:
kodak80 wrote:
Stefan jL wrote:I cant make any new image of Time of Lore since i broke my scpro, but i have an older dump i did with my Sony drive... you can check that one out if you think it will show a different result:
/not_working/timeoflore_rev5_sony_acdc.7z


I have downloaded this SCP and AUFIT converts it to an STX which loads in Hitari. Interestingly, it would not boot in Hitari with EmuTOS. It booted fine once I used TOS 1.04. Hope this helps. I will load the SCP onto a floppy later today and test it in my STFM.

thanks I will test
and please Hatari :cry:


Yeah, sorry for the spelling mistake! It was early and I was on my way to work. I find that converting an SCP to STX is the quickest test to see if the SCP was any good. I did use AUFIT though to create the STX file :D
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby Stefan jL » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:06 am

DrCoolZic wrote:
Stefan jL wrote:since i broke my scpro
what have you done ? 8O


Messing with the floppy cable, and doing it the same time as the scpro was powered on... thats some of the things i did :)
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:07 am

Stefan jL wrote:
DrCoolZic wrote:
Stefan jL wrote:since i broke my scpro
what have you done ? 8O


Messing with the floppy cable, and doing it the same time as the scpro was powered on... thats some of the things i did :)

Too bad. I found that the floppy drive i/f is usually very tolerant. I had several time put a floppy cable backward on SCP / KF / CE without problem.
What is often pretty bad is to connect disconnect I/F while power is on

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:28 am

Stefan jL wrote:I cant make any new image of Time of Lore since i broke my scpro, but i have an older dump i did with my Sony drive... you can check that one out if you think it will show a different result:
/not_working/timeoflore_rev5_sony_acdc.7z

Ok I have looked at the image.
First the glitches around 115ms on track 70,71,72 are gone!? so sector 5 on track 70 & 71 are now read correctly. Did you clean up the disk or just using a different drive?

Now the bad news is that track 72 still has a glitch in sector 7 (the first sect) around 23 ms
tol-72.PNG

And therefore the sector is not read correctly. So I guess that at some point the game will fail as this does not look like a wanted protection.
There is also a glitch around 18.5 ms. This is the end of the sector started before the index (shifted sector). But apparently this happen after the end of sector reads correctly (to check just double click on the last sector 6 in Aufit)
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby IFW » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:33 am

DrCoolZic wrote:'I was also thinking of adding some sort of "quality analysis" in Aufit.
What I have seen often is the pattern found here where in an area the bit width "spread" abnormally
Another one strange is some sort of Wobulation of the bitcell width. Like if the motor was going up and down creating a sort of sine wave. This happen on drive with perfectly stable speed on other floppies?

see also viewtopic.php?f=95&t=25934


It's due to speed change.
It can happen 3 ways - and any combination of those:
1, drive speed wobble during read (when you sample the disk)
2, drive speed wobble during write (duplication)
3, disk surface very slightly deformed, e.g. bent disk (a lot easier to see with 5.25 disks)
The waveform you get depends on the number of factors contributing, if you are really lucky you get some really nice looking modulation ;)

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby JimDrew » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:57 pm

Keep in mind that I offer a lifetime warranty on the hardware. So, if you damage it, just return it and I will repair/replace it. The board is very well buffered with high current capable parts. I never worry about the power being on or off while plugging/unplugging cables. It's designed to be hot swappable like that without damage. Sometimes, if the cable is inserted backwards you can kill Huey or Duey (Luey is already dead, but that's another story!) but that depends on the drive it is being connected to. Out of the 1100+ boards sold, I have had 5 come back due to cable issues (typically, 1 pin off).
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:13 pm

Thanks for information provided in this thread and others ...
I have updated the Atari FD protection document to version 1.3

Lot of work !!!
- Added detail analysis of protections on many new games that have been discussed recently on Atari Forum. Including ECO, Golden Axe, Jupiter Masterdrive, Maupiti Island, Obitus, Time of Lore, Vroom, Wizball, Z-out ...
- Now protection are grouped into two categories: data prot / timing prot
- Added Fuzzy track prot
- More details on Invalid ID field
- More details on shifted tracks
- Added write splice, Sync mark descriptions
- Chapter on preservation
- fixed lot of errors + clarification
...
document is too big to be uploaded (about 7MB) so directly available at http://info-coach.fr/atari/documents/_m ... ection.pdf

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:32 am

Sorry I messed up during word to pdf conversion and the hyperlinks were not converted properly
Problem is now fixed you should be able to get a working version following the original link. http://info-coach.fr/atari/documents/_m ... ection.pdf

Internal hyperlinks should now work. Tested with Acrobat reader and Pro as well as Chrome / Firefox and IE
Be aware that many browsers use cache for recently visited documents so you may need to do a refresh.
The document should now show version 1.3a

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby kodak80 » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:44 am

Yep, all good now here. Thank you.
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:44 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:Thanks for information provided in this thread and others ...
I have updated the Atari FD protection document to version 1.3

Lot of work !!!
- Added detail analysis of protections on many new games that have been discussed recently on Atari Forum. Including ECO, Golden Axe, Jupiter Masterdrive, Maupiti Island, Obitus, Time of Lore, Vroom, Wizball, Z-out ...
- Now protection are grouped into two categories: data prot / timing prot
- Added Fuzzy track prot
- More details on Invalid ID field
- More details on shifted tracks
- Added write splice, Sync mark descriptions
- Chapter on preservation
- fixed lot of errors + clarification
...
document is too big to be uploaded (about 7MB) so directly available at http://info-coach.fr/atari/documents/_m ... ection.pdf


Hi Jean, just a remark about Maupiti Islands, Golden Axe, and Obitus. After checking as i said a while ago, those games "data tracks" are amiga tracks.

If you use any of this game on an amiga and try to copy them with let's say Powercopy, it's amiga tracks :)
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby DrCoolZic » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:57 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:
Hi Jean, just a remark about Maupiti Islands, Golden Axe, and Obitus. After checking as i said a while ago, those games "data tracks" are amiga tracks.

If you use any of this game on an amiga and try to copy them with let's say Powercopy, it's amiga tracks :)

You are probably right I have minimum knowledge about Amiga.
Note that the mentioned game uses slightly different format but may all compatible with Amiga

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby npomarede » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:41 pm

No, once again as various people tried to explain it to dlfrsilver, those are not amiga tracks.
Those are tracks without sectors that you read with "read track" FDC command on ST, but those are not Amiga tracks, because the WD1772 is not able to read any kind of MFM track, as it is well know that some bits combinations will mess with the sync detection that is kept enable during the read track.
So, the fact that those track can be read on an Amiga does't make them "amiga tracks", there're just MFM tracks, period. Even limited ones if we want to be precise, because some bytes can't be used in those tracks, else the ST won't be able to read the track correctly with the same results on each revolution.

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby JimDrew » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:09 pm

npomarede, you might want to check the track format. I do know that I have seen several Atari ST games (I don't recall which now) that are in fact "AmigaDOS" tracks. Just like the protection track for the Amiga version of Dungeon Master is the EXACT track from the Atari ST version, which is in AtariDOS format - not AmigaDOS. It's REALLY easy to tell the difference between Atari/IBM PC MFM tracks and AmigaDOS MFM tracks. The Atari ST should be able to read an AmigaDOS track using the readtrack() function of the WD1772, but there is no way to format or write that format.

I will go see if I have any of these programs and look at the tracks.
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby JimDrew » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:39 pm

I have the ST version of Obitus (original). It uses a custom format (not typical Atari) with 3 syncs at the start of the track and no sectors. So that must be loaded with the readtrack() function. The Amiga version uses a non-standard single sync mark at the start of the track (after the track gap). It does not require the disk to be index'd, which means its just looking for a series of AA's and the sync mark. I do not have Golden Axe or Maupiti Islands to check.
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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby npomarede » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:18 am

JimDrew wrote:npomarede, you might want to check the track format. I do know that I have seen several Atari ST games (I don't recall which now) that are in fact "AmigaDOS" tracks. Just like the protection track for the Amiga version of Dungeon Master is the EXACT track from the Atari ST version, which is in AtariDOS format - not AmigaDOS. It's REALLY easy to tell the difference between Atari/IBM PC MFM tracks and AmigaDOS MFM tracks. The Atari ST should be able to read an AmigaDOS track using the readtrack() function of the WD1772, but there is no way to format or write that format.

I will go see if I have any of these programs and look at the tracks.

No, the read track command on the WD1772 is not reliable because during the read track command the address mark detector stays on, which is a bug in the WD1772. This result in the fact that some bits combination can trigger a resync if the bit pattern (that could just be some data in the middle of a sector) gets interpreted as a sync mark.
That why even with ST formatted floppies (10 sectors per track for example), the read track command can return bad data if there's a specific pattern inside the 512 bytes data of a sector. So, unless the track was crafted specifically to avoid such pattern when is was written, it's quite likely that the read track command of the WD1772 won't return all the bytes you expected.
An amiga can read any ST tracks (with fixed bitcell size), but not the opposite. Tracks that can be read on both ST and Amiga were certainly made in such a way that they don't mess with the WD1772 AM detector.

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Re: SCP disk images !

Postby JimDrew » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:29 pm

The read track is certainly reliable on the WD1772. You just have to make sure that the MFM is encoded so that there no possibility of having 3 or more zero bits in a row. That is what Obitus and numerous programs do for both the Atari ST and Amiga versions. The Amiga's controller is no different than the WD1772. If you leave the DSKSYNC bit enabled, it will bit align the data on the matching sync. At least with the Amiga's controller you can disable that option after the first sync is found.
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