List of difficult to copy disks

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:37 pm

npomarede wrote:
IFW wrote:Yes, that's how they all work if you check out the loaders. Any encoding that would make the track read data to shift is replaced with an escape sequence and the loader decodes the data. Usually there is a simple custom checksum as well, since the FDC can no longer be used to detect read errors.
CTA knows many of those formats.

Yes, similar to Maupiti Island for example. See http://www.sarnau.info/atari:protection_maupiti_island for details.

Nicolas

This similar but different. Maupiti Island uses a header that contains (escape char is 0x07)
 3 * 0xA1 Sync
 0xFE
 Escape char
 Track Number
 Escape char
 Checksum High Byte
 Escape char
 Checksum Low Byte
 Escape char

Here there is no identifiable header
International Soccer uses a different escape char (0x0F) but same kind of header

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby npomarede » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:43 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:
npomarede wrote:
IFW wrote:Yes, that's how they all work if you check out the loaders. Any encoding that would make the track read data to shift is replaced with an escape sequence and the loader decodes the data. Usually there is a simple custom checksum as well, since the FDC can no longer be used to detect read errors.
CTA knows many of those formats.

Yes, similar to Maupiti Island for example. See http://www.sarnau.info/atari:protection_maupiti_island for details.

Nicolas

This similar but different. Maupiti Island uses a header that contains (escape char is 0x07)
 3 * 0xA1 Sync
 0xFE
 Escape char
 Track Number
 Escape char
 Checksum High Byte
 Escape char
 Checksum Low Byte
 Escape char

Here there is no identifiable header
International Soccer uses a different escape char (0x0F) but same kind of header

All variations are possible once you have the 0xA1 sync, no real need for a header, that's up to the program to decide what they want to store, as long as they choose a correct "escape" byte to avoid resyncing.

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:48 pm

Here is an example of NFA over index in Turrican - Track 8 for my FD. NFA about 4.2ms located about 1.3 ms before index ;)

KRYOFLUX OUTPUT
NFAOverIndex-Kryoflux.PNG


SUPERCARD PRO OUTPUT
NFAOverIndex-SCP.PNG
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:53 pm

Yes, there is no need for header. Usually A1 is used for sync. Checksum is optional too - I saw lot of loaders of normal sectors where no check of CRC after load, so may be considered as checksumless too :D
Considering that there are some escape bytes to avoid resync, more accurate to avoid bit seq. : %000101001 , I estimate that max user data on track can be about 6280 bytes . Depends on used density of course .
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:54 pm

npomarede wrote:All variations are possible once you have the 0xA1 sync, no real need for a header, that's up to the program to decide what they want to store, as long as they choose a correct "escape" byte to avoid resyncing.

Right

more interesting is the game that have Fuzzy bytes in a read track :)
Anybody has an SCP or KF file for this game ?

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:56 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Yes, there is no need for header. Usually A1 is used for sync. Checksum is optional too - I saw lot of loaders of normal sectors where no check of CRC after load, so may be considered as checksumless too :D
Considering that there are some escape bytes to avoid resync, more accurate to avoid bit seq. : %000101001 , I estimate that max user data on track can be about 6280 bytes . Depends on used density of course .

Cant go much further than 5% reliably

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:11 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:...
more interesting is the game that have Fuzzy bytes in a read track :)
Anybody has an SCP or KF file for this game ?


So far only Power Drift is known, which has Fuzzy in read track. What game you mean ?
This high density and track read based system is good enough copy protection in self. Don't see real need to 'spice' with fuzzy :D
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:16 pm

Zoom on the NFA with multiple revolution display
NFA Over index-zoom.PNG

Cool
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:35 pm

AtariZoll wrote: Power Drift is known, which has Fuzzy in read track.

Would you (or anybody else) have a SCP of KF file for this game

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:44 pm

Please have a look at http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php ... 6949#p6941

Istvan is mentioning that NFA protection might not work on some Atari floppy drives?
Anybody have heard about games with NFA (Airborne ranger, Dragon ninja, Gazza soccer, Gostb buster 2, Hadr Drivin, Turrican, Kick off 2 ....) not working on real Atari ????

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby JimDrew » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:50 pm

I released the fix for the choke. ;)

Nice to see you have solved the NFA issue for Aufit.

The track duration is the index to index time - how long it took for the revolution to be spooled. Adding up all of the bitcell times should equal that time (but it won't be perfect due to drive speed variations). I am not sure why your first revoluion (revolution 0) has a smaller than normal time value vs. the duration. It shouldn't. I will look into that.

You guys and your 0xA1 syncs... call them 0x4489! :)

There are quite a few programs for the Amiga that use a huge difference in the clocking window - way more than 5%, this is how they get really long tracks. As far as I can tell, the WD1772 is not limited in the length of the data it will decode when issued a Type III command (read track). What I did see mentioned is that all sync patterns (0x4489) will cause a re-sync of the data. If you look at an Atari formatted disk, there are all kinds of issues because the sectors are written individually. The Amiga writes an entire track at once, even if a single sector is updated (there is a queue time courtesy of the multitasking, so multiple sector writes don't actually re-write the track for each sector - only when the head is stepped or a timeout occurs). So, with an Atari ST track you have to bitshift the data back and forth to locate the sync for just about every sector. With an Amiga track, you bitshift the data and the rest of the syncs will automatically be on the same shift value because they were written all together.

By the way, you can EASILY read and write NFA protections with the stock Amiga. I called this "strongbit" protections because when you read the protection data (NFA) it shows up as all MFM 0's (0x0000 over and over). Writing 0x0000 generated weakbits. So to write strongbits you just turned the 0x0000 into 0xFFFF (from weak to strong) and like magic, you duplicated the protection.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:38 pm

JimDrew wrote:I am not sure why your first revoluion (revolution 0) has a smaller than normal time value vs. the duration. It shouldn't. I will look into that.

Please do not change anything otherwise this will break the workaround!
EDIT: it is actually exactly how it should be ;) unless you fix the SCP format :roll:

I have tested 1.02 and it seems to fix the problem of program crashing.

It is difficult to see the display (no zoom) but if I understand correctly the display shows the 5 revolutions even if only one is checked

... and display is definitively wrong!

The fist NFA is located after the index instead of over the index and at each revolution the location of the NFA is shifted more and more to end up quite off :wink:

turrican-NFA-over-index-bad-display.PNG
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:43 pm

Here is the correct display of the 5 revolutions
a little bit of NFA before a little bit of NFA after the index :)

nfa-over-index-multi-rev.PNG


and zommed version here viewtopic.php?f=102&t=25854&p=247025#p246995
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby JimDrew » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:31 pm

The NFA appears in the gap correctly, so it looks like the dividers are off. I will have to check that. If there is an error in the length I need to fix it. I will look at some programs that have multiple NFA locations and see if the accumulated bitcell length adds up to the track duration the same for every revolution. I just realized that I forgot to disable the revolution display boxes - all of that should be ghosted out so you can't use it - it's not finished yet.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:51 pm

JimDrew wrote:If there is an error in the length I need to fix it.

There is no error in the length the value is correct. FYI This value is exactly the same value returned by the KryoFlux device.
The only difference is that they have an extra field to position the index inside the NFA where in the case of SCP this value has to be computed, thanks to the partial NFA in the first revolution that you have added in FW 0.8

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby JimDrew » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:17 pm

OK, so in my display the vertical lines that separate each revolution must be off (drawn wrong). Can you send me your version of Turrican? Mine does not look like yours!
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:16 pm

JimDrew wrote:OK, so in my display the vertical lines that separate each revolution must be off (drawn wrong). Can you send me your version of Turrican? Mine does not look like yours!

I have twice Turrican and they also differs. It seems like the position of the NFA is always different on different disks.
But both have a NFA over index just on different track

On this one the NFA is on track 8.0
here is the image https://mega.co.nz/#!JkZmELiY!yT11-u2UE ... U-6-0CE3CA
5 revolutions

can you send me your version of kickoff2 with at least 3 rev (I also own two but they also differ from yours) - thanks

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby JimDrew » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:00 am

My vertical lines are correct and anything without a NFA is shown correct. So, I must have a calculation error in the NFA drawing routine that is shifting the track data over... probably by two pixels per revolution. I will look into that and send you a link to my Kick Off 2 (multi-rev dump) in the morning.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:23 am

DrCoolZic wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:Hello, i got today a very interesting dump. I got the game Obitus in original 2 disks for atari ST.

The boot track is an atari track, however, all the other tracks on disk 1 and 2 seems to be amiga format, i should say the psygnosis special format which allows
a big storing capacity (It's not an MFM format, but a bit stream format, allowing 30% more storage than an MFM format. The tracks have no sectors.


Hmmm - there is people knowing more than me about this, but ... WD1772 can handle only MFM as I know, and only double density in ST. There can be little higher data rate/density - 5% or like more. Combining it with track read, you can have over 6KB data per track. Surely not 30% more data than normal 10 s/track format. It is btw. not rare case - some other Psygnosis titles use, then some Lankhor games etc ... Or Space Ace/Dragon's Lair serial where no track read, but higher density combined with 1KB sectors, then Wrath of the Demon - cracks have bigger number of disks because can not write so much bytes per track with normal ST, PC .
I will check it and what is exact user data amount per track - what is always less than total bytes/track because need to avoid specific bit sequence.

Indeed only track one of each side looks like an Atari track!
What is amazing is that it works with Aufit!
Aufit is like WD1772 it only know MFM DD 8O
All the tracks seems to start with a triplle A1 sync sequence but after that it is unknown. There must be some escape sequence as NO C2 sync are found in the complete track !!!!


Ok Jean, i did yesterday a little test, i tried to copy obitus atari ST on my A1200..... guess what ? The tracks are recognized as amiga tracks ! So the St is finally reading amiga tracks ahahah :) So Aufit is clearly showing things right ! the track length on amiga is seen as $18F7 in length (6391 bytes per side so 12782 bytes per track). This is very interesting ! i guess that Maupiti Islands on atari ST disks tracks were done by Bruno Langlois on an amiga.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:47 am

dlfrsilver wrote:..
Ok Jean, i did yesterday a little test, i tried to copy obitus atari ST on my A1200..... guess what ? The tracks are recognized as amiga tracks ! So the St is finally reading amiga tracks ahahah :) So Aufit is clearly showing things right ! the track length on amiga is seen as $18F7 in length (6391 bytes per side so 12782 bytes per track). This is very interesting ! i guess that Maupiti Islands on atari ST disks tracks were done by Bruno Langlois on an amiga.


I would not call it 'amiga track' . By Amiga, track write/read is normal way of floppy operation. It has good side of bigger capacity, and bad side of slower work. Possible that Amiga was used by some firms, coders. but there are other ways. And commercial floppy writing was for sure not done with Amigas :D Track read by Atari allows more user data + gives copy protection, because you can not write it properly with WD1772. And not even with Amiga if density is bigger.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:35 am

AtariZoll wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:..
Ok Jean, i did yesterday a little test, i tried to copy obitus atari ST on my A1200..... guess what ? The tracks are recognized as amiga tracks ! So the St is finally reading amiga tracks ahahah :) So Aufit is clearly showing things right ! the track length on amiga is seen as $18F7 in length (6391 bytes per side so 12782 bytes per track). This is very interesting ! i guess that Maupiti Islands on atari ST disks tracks were done by Bruno Langlois on an amiga.


I would not call it 'amiga track' . By Amiga, track write/read is normal way of floppy operation. It has good side of bigger capacity, and bad side of slower work. Possible that Amiga was used by some firms, coders. but there are other ways. And commercial floppy writing was for sure not done with Amigas :D Track read by Atari allows more user data + gives copy protection, because you can not write it properly with WD1772. And not even with Amiga if density is bigger.


On the master disks, and i'm not talking here of the copy protection based on weak-bits on track 00.1 on disk 1, were tracks written on an amiga. Once the master disks were done, they have of course been duplicated the finished master disks using a Trace Mountain machine (i owned one ;) ).

But my amiga read the tracks as theirs, with a 4489 sync. It that was ST tracks, my amiga would not see those as amiga tracks.

Obitus tracks are not atari ST tracks at all. Aufit shows it when i check my KF stream file dump, and also with the SCP dump.

Of and i forgot, the atari ST drive is not made to do track read normally. That's what Bruno Langlois said about Maupiti Islands, which is using the same system. They have incorporated a "BIOS" on the boot track, which allows to do track read instead of sector read (normal atari ST drive / FDC normal working).
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:02 pm

What is interesting is that the tracks do not contains the normal Atari "structure" of ID / Data segments, but however there are written using MFM DD so the WD1772 can read them perfectly.
Also interesting is that Aufit takes a conservative approach of always saving read track data in stx file (as does the latest version of Pasti imager).
So even if no sectors are detected the program can read the info correctly. The first track has a normal structure so it can be loaded by the Atari and I guess the loaded program must be reading the rest of the FD

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:14 pm

I don't think that we should say 'not ST track' for some track what can be read properly on ST :D
This is of course not standard ST track, but there are lot of other, different copy protections, which are too not standard - using 1KB sectors, non-standard sector #s , etc .
It is not Atari ST drive (what actually exists not in fact, since Atari used diverse models, brands) , but WD1772 what is not made to read tracks normally - intentionally or not ? Bruno Langlois is wrong in this. Then, saying that 'incorporated "BIOS" in boot track' is again not correct. Boot sector is what must be present on all Atari ST floppies, more precisely on all first floppy of some multi-floppy SW, otherwise it will be not recognized at all. So, in case of Mapuiti I., Obitus, etc. there is always standard 512 bytes sector #1 on side 0, track 0. It loads further code, what can use total custom floppy access. And can be placed anywhere on floppy. Well, I said basically same as DrCoolZic :D
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:51 pm

Who is Bruno Langlois? Probably not him http://veloptimum.net/BrunoLanglois.html ?
May be Jean-Luc Langlois et Bruno Gourier ?

Apparently Stefan jL has Power Drift so µI hope he will be able to generate scp file for it.

Detecting fuzzy byte in a track is not that easy and this probably why Pasti is not detecting it. On a normal track there a lot of reason why you can have fuzzy bytes in the gap areas and of course you should not care. This is why Pasti is only looking for fuzzy bytes in Data segment only.
If you know that the track is a "one data track" then it would be ok to detect fuzzy byte but the first question is how do you know that you have a "one data segment track". Originally I thought that such track would always have a sort of ID in front of the data like in Maupiti Island (0x07 escape char) or International Soccer (0x0F escape char) even though the ID segment is not standard. With the two last examples if you do a read address command you will find an ID with wrong content and wrong CRC but at least it is there. But with Obitus you don't even have that so if you do a read address you will not find any ID.
So the problem is how to differentiate an unformatted track from a "one data segment track" on an Atari? If you are loking for it it is easy but if you do not know it is not obvious. The only good indicator is the facty thatr the track must have two or three A1 sync otherwise you cannot read the track reliably and that almost all the information you have. I guess that this is one of the reason why latest release of Pasti always write what is read by a read track ...
It is much more easy from Aufit because we can test that we have MFM transitions at 4 / 6 / 8 µs and not random values, but is is not always that easy. For example eco (ocean) uses tracks that only have a small segment formatted (without ID but with sync) and all the rest unformatted something like this
eco-74.0.PNG

But again as the track content is saved by Pasti/Aufit these track should be read correctly in the emulator.

After all it might not be such a bad idea to store directly flux transitions in emulator files :)
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:58 pm

What is strange is how the flux transitions are moving from unformatted random PROGRESSIVELY to formatted (decode as value 0x55) ????
I do not know how this is feasible???
eco-zoom.PNG


I wonder if machine like Trace could do this kind of progressive pattern ?????
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