Going into demo creation in 2017?

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Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby sjuktstarkgrogg » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:56 pm

Hi Atarians,
I've been watching demos since as far back as I can remember and I've always been fascinated by the creators behind them. I never quite got into it myself, although I've been making chiptunes for almost a decade by now (mostly on GB and GBA). I don't belong to the generation that grew up with Atari STs as a teenager but I definetly remember my older cousins showing me demos and games on them when I was a kid.. My following question might come off as a bit naive but I'd like to know what yout think.

Do you fellow veteran Atarians think it would be possible for someone to begin their journey in Atari ST demo creation/programming in 2017?
If yes, what are your suggestions to take a first step?

Kind regards
SSG

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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby christos » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:25 pm

Yes absolutely.

My main suggestion would be to start with simple stuff and not to try very elaborate demo effects. It's also ok to cheat. A good idea is to put a few sprites on screen and have them do something interesting for example.
As for programming I use GFA Basic but if you speak any other programming language there are many of them available on the Atari. Languages like STOS are also good for the first few tries because they do hand hold you a lot and you don't have to deal with how to display a sprite on screen or load an image, so you can focus on creating the logic of your program.
Last but not least. Ask away. Most people will be glad to provide information on how to do stuff, they will explain what you are doing wrong and help you understand how things like bitplanes work.
Once you decide with what language you want to start, there are a lot of resources so that you can quickly start building something.
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby joska » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:28 pm

1. Learn some basic 68k assembler. DevPac 3 seems to be the standard for ST demo development.
2. Take a look here :) Lots of useful stuff that can teach you a lot.

You also have to decide if you want to develop on the ST or just for it. My impression is that most development for the ST these days is done on a PC using an emulator for testing. Personally I prefer to use the real hardware for development too, to me that's a very important part of the retro experience. But that's a matter of taste :)
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:48 pm

Well, I think that most important here is what are your ambitions - to do it for own fun, or want to do something impressive, what can show to people.
I say it, because unless you have some great idea for demo, which can be done without some higher knowledge about Atari HW + CPU programming, and lot of experience - you may expect that results will come very slowly, and at price of plenty of time spent on it.
So, for own fun you can go way proposed by Christos.
For something impressive you will need assembler, indeed. Then lot of knowledge about HW, and even some tricky programming for best results. Fact is that best demos were made by very experienced people.

Now, what Joska says that it is matter of taste doing it on real Atari or in emulator. Bad formulation. Not on emulator, but on emulator with debugger, with very good tracing capabilities and more useful features ... And there is one of the bests among Atari emulators. Things are that it will make whole process much more efficient and results will come faster. Of course, you will need real HW too as final judge.
Doing it on real Atari means more time - so yes, if it is not problem, and you doing it only for fun, then on Atari ...
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby dhedberg » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:40 pm

Yes! Go for it!

If you ask me there is only one language if you want to program the Atari, and that's assembly language.

Why?
- If you program in Basic or any other high level language you can just as well do it on a PC. The level of abstraction is so high that hardly anything is specific to the Atari any longer.
- To really get to know the Atari hardware and to get the most out of it there is nothing that beats assembly language.
- You get the chance to reinvent the wheel again! How fun is it to call a function written by somebody else to set a pixel on the screen, or whatever? Figure out how to do it yourself. Learn something and have that rewarding feeling when you succeed and understand how it is done.
- Assembly language and writing demos involve a lot of low level tricks with bits and logic. It's fun in itself to figure out how to do things and how to do things faster.
- Lots of people with great knowledge still active that will be ready to answer your questions.

I would recommend you to get familiar with the 68000 instruction set and binary and hexadecimal systems to start with. Then start learning some basics about the Atari hardware and maybe try to set a few pixels on the screen in various colors.

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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby joska » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:51 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Bad formulation.


No, precise formulation.

Yes, cross-developing on a PC and test/debug with an emulator is more efficient than developing on real hardware. But this is just for fun. It's a hobby. My hobby is to develop ON real hardware, not just FOR it. Using Eclipse, gcc and Hatari on my PC would of course be more efficient, but to me it would also be pointless - a major part of my hobby is missing. Others feels differently, and that is of course perfectly OK. So it's a matter of taste and personal preferences, nothing else. Don't pretend that the choice of tools is rational, because there is absolutely nothing rational in creating software for an Atari ST anyway :) It's just plain fun, and you do it the way YOU like it.

So sjuktstarkgrogg first have to figure out what the fun part is, because the approach and tools differs a lot.
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:31 pm

It is not cross developing, gcc and other ... The key is in much more efficient tracing and debugging of code execution. In good debugger you see things what can not see on real HW - you can have complete overview. Tracing with MON for instance, what is very good tool is just so much slower and harder, not to mention that some errors can even crash it. Then all it again from start ... Hobby or not, everyone likes it done faster.
"there is absolutely nothing rational in creating software for an Atari ST" - really ? You make something what can be useful for other people, or even only for own usage - like lets say simple proggie what can measuring accurately floppy rotation speed. And it is needed exactly for some oldtimer, because they tend to have floppy problems - mostly of mechanical nature. Or just let stay at topic: want to impress friends, who coming for weekend in visit, with some fancy demo - time is tight, so who is winner in that case ?
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby troed » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:11 pm

AtariZoll wrote:everyone likes it done faster


No.

Both LoSTE and {Closure} were written in Devpac. Debugged with MonST. I code demos and utilities to relax from work, and a large part of the joy comes from doing it just the way I used to do it back then.

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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby joska » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:14 pm

Troed gets it :)
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby thomas3 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:38 pm

Dude, I did this this year! :D

When I was a kid, I used to mess around with demos in STOS - getting nowhere. ASM was a total mystery - seemed like magic.

This year, at the age of 38, I randomly took up STOS properly, wrote a megademo, and the learnt enough ASM in one week to write a horrible looking screen. Yay!

I do something totally different for a day job (I'm an academic psychologist!!) and like others, this hobby is about escapism, relaxation and nostalgia. I develop entirely in an emulator because we have no space at home for real hardware!

So GO FOR IT - the resources available are amazing, and it really is much easier than you think. After all, most of the best demos were written by teenagers with just a few years coding experience!

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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby LynXX » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:51 am

I would encourage you to go for it too! 8) It should be a lot of fun. I would recommend assembly too, at least ultimately even if you start with something simpler like STOS. That will be the only way to reach peak performance, and to make something Atari ST specific. If you were to code in BASIC for example you could just as well run it on your PC, or on another platform like a C64 as it was said above. Building something in assembly, for a specific platform is where a lot of the fun is (in my opinion!).

An excellent resource for that, and a good first step in my opinion, are the Perihelion 68k assembly tutorials. Here's a shameless plug :) to a version I converted to make a bit more readable, but there's the original post too.

What's excellent with these tutorials is that they give you a good understanding of how the hardware works, even if you don't intend to use assembly, and that gives you an idea of what you're getting yourself into. Additionally they read very, very well, so you can for example read them on the bus or in the train like you would do with a book (although trying to run the code yourself is definitely a must do if you plan to use assembly).

Alternatively if you want to start with something simpler (STOS, GFA Basic, etc), I'm sure some people will be able to recommend good tutorials. An alternative is also to look into scans of old Atari magazines to find old tutorials there.

As to whether to work on the ST directly, or working on a PC and cross-compiling / cross-assembling, it's really a matter of personal preference and what you're looking for. Perhaps you can compare that to the GB/GBA chiptunes you said you were making. Do you prefer to make them directly on the Gameboy, or do you prefer to make them on a PC with more recent / practical tools? It's kind of the same debate.

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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby mikro » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:03 am

As a person who bought his first Atari in 1993, first ST in 1997 and first Falcon in 2001 I say yes, absolutely. Nothing beats the feeling when you code a rotating square for the first time. ;-)

But as Joska says, think about what makes it fun for you. I had started with Devpac on Falcon with RGB monitor in 640x200, while listening to MP3s on the same Falcon's Aniplayer, lotsa fun, lotsa great memories but nowadays I do everything on PC and use the Falcon only for verification. In other words, I'm more pleased to see something "great" as a result than the process of making it.

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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:28 am

"or working on a PC and cross-compiling / cross-assembling," - second time 'cross' is mentioned here. That is indeed one of the ways, and many use that way now. Speed is much better, and Atari ST is just not really enough powerful for some larger C project compiling. Even if you solve it on Atari it may take very long time.
What I meant here as way, what is in my opinion most productive is using emulator with debugger. So, you can use original Atari SW, and as first project will be no larger size, all it will go fast, even without speeding up emulator. And here we are at another benefit of working not on oldie, but on some 1000x faster machine, because it will do the job even via emulation 20x faster. Concrete: assembling some 400KB source with Devpac can take 20-30 minutes on ST (will need 4MB most likely). In emulator it can be 20-30x faster. So, I asking: is it fun to sit and wait many minutes for finishing of process ?
And normally, you will need to assemble, compile it many-many times.
When I attached hard disk on my Atari, it was great advantage - could do lot of things much faster, without need for juggling with floppies. And me, as problematic persona never felt some nostalgia for old floppy way :mrgreen:
OK, we are different, some just want to relax, have fun, forget everyday problems and like. But there are some who have lot of projects, lot of unfinished started projects, lot of games to fix, for instance - so time IS key factor. On top of it there is screen problem, and I don't see that someone mentioned it - why not work on hi-res monitor, with hi-res graphic, without flickering ? That saves my eyes for instance. After 200 hours of coding, watching demo for 10 minutes on old CRT monitor or TV will be not much bad for eyes :D
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby wietze » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:25 pm

sjuktstarkgrogg wrote:Hi Atarians,
I've been watching demos since as far back as I can remember and I've always been fascinated by the creators behind them. I never quite got into it myself, although I've been making chiptunes for almost a decade by now (mostly on GB and GBA). I don't belong to the generation that grew up with Atari STs as a teenager but I definetly remember my older cousins showing me demos and games on them when I was a kid.. My following question might come off as a bit naive but I'd like to know what yout think.

Do you fellow veteran Atarians think it would be possible for someone to begin their journey in Atari ST demo creation/programming in 2017?
If yes, what are your suggestions to take a first step?

Kind regards
SSG


Yes its possible. I have a similar story like you and started 4 years ago doing my first programming steps on the atari.

What helped me the most is being part of a community, so i could bounce my peoblems and thoughts off people. To prevent getting stuck and getting motivation. I found such community to be on irc.

Other than that, is just doing it. Set yourself a target, anything, and get going. I chose a scroller and a starfield, but anyhting goes! I started off with C (i dont recommend it ;)), but anything goes! There are no wrong steps, just do it ;)

Oh, and dont be afraid to ask stuff, noone will write your code for you, but everyone is willing to help ;). Other than helpful people there are loads of resources to use.

Looking forward to see your first demo!

Regrds
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby BoNuS » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:08 pm

Saying GFA is not good enough to program any demo in is like saying with 16 colors you can't make good gfx (and there are enough 16 color gems to proof otherwise)
So ASM is faster, true, but putting the rest down feels to me like disrespect, sorry.
Anybody should be able to make a demo in whatever programming language he or she chooses.
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby christos » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:24 pm

BoNuS wrote:Saying GFA is not good enough to program any demo in is like saying with 16 colors you can't make good gfx (and there are enough 16 color gems to proof otherwise)
So ASM is faster, true, but putting the rest down feels to me like disrespect, sorry.
Anybody should be able to make a demo in whatever programming language he or she chooses.
Limitations make the master...


Also, you don't need to have 1vbl gouraud shaded torus' to make a nice demo. Even simple effects can be impressive if they are presented in a nice manner.
By the time anyone gets to a point where the programming language is the barrier to getting good performance, they are at the point where they know the machine well enough to feel right at home with asm. There are some good arguments for using any programming language ranging from use C or ASM because you can then use that in embedded programming to use C++ and cross tools because that's what everyone uses. And of course there are so many Anti-Basic quotes that could fill a whole thread.
I can summarize in the following manner: High level language has a lower barrier to entry, ASM has better performance.
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby simonsunnyboy » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:45 pm

BoNuS wrote:Saying GFA is not good enough to program any demo in is like saying with 16 colors you can't make good gfx (and there are enough 16 color gems to proof otherwise)
So ASM is faster, true, but putting the rest down feels to me like disrespect, sorry.
Anybody should be able to make a demo in whatever programming language he or she chooses.
Limitations make the master...


+1, master the tool and show what it is possible with it.

I prefer releases that get finished instead of those that lay on harddisks and never make it just because the developer focuses on special technique first and only instead of having something complete at all.

Do the content first and enhance it later when the rest works.

I prefer a complete game in GFABASIC over a fancy tech demo with STE features made in assembly language but lacking content for focus on top notch techs :coffe:
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby thomas3 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:38 pm

I think that it is all so dependent on what motivates you. I spent hours upon hours between 1987/88 and 1992 watching cracktros and old school demos, so, weirdly, I still find these very simple effects totally gratifying to make. Especially in a language that I spent hours messing with at the time. It seems so lame but e.g. knocking out the lower border in STOS feels like more of a personal achievement than stuff that I actually get paid for at work!

One thing I would say is the more I've got into this, the more it has actually shown me that a lot of demos from this period (particularly the later years - the classics don't count!) were actually pretty bad :D. For every Flexiscroll, Spreadpoint or Brief History of Time, there are 100x screens of really quite low quality (code and aesthetics) that must have taken little time or imagination to think up and write - and on reflection, often clearly weren't even optimised! I guess learning some of the tricks that are going on behind the scenes has spoilt my enjoyment of some of these old demos, which feels a bit of a shame really...

(Sometimes, I like to imagine what people would have thought if something like Execution or [closure] had dropped in 1990!! Total witchcraft!!! :D)

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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby sjuktstarkgrogg » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:32 pm

Wow! Thank you all for participating in this thread!
I got so much valuable information and it feels really encouraging to start!
I hear some mixed opinions whether it's better to do it directly on an Atari Emulator on PC and then test them out on the machine or do the entire coding on the Atari ST. I think I'm going to do a bit of both.. Since I work a lot I only carry my personal mac with me, it would be a great thing to get in to writing some demos when I have a couple of hours to kill and then continue when I get home from work on the real machine. Does anyone else have this kind of approach to making demos or just coding for the ST in general ?

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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby joska » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:52 pm

Yes, I used to code under Hatari on my laptop when I was away from my toys. I did not use cross compilers or any host side tools though, but used the SD-card from my STE as Hatari disk. This way I could simply move the SD-card between my laptop and STE and continue exactly where I left.

However, doing this is not without side-effects. E.g. switching from med- to low-rez half way down the screen worked fine under Hatari but not at all on my STM. And DMA-sound sounds very differently on Hatari than on the real thing. I wasted a lot of time figuring out what happened here. So if you go the emulator route - test as often as you can on real hardware.
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby ggn » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:09 am

sjuktstarkgrogg wrote:Hi Atarians,
Do you fellow veteran Atarians think it would be possible for someone to begin their journey in Atari ST demo creation/programming in 2017?
If yes, what are your suggestions to take a first step?


There's certainly no law against it! Also, here is some source code to get you going.
is 73 Falcon patched atari games enough ? ^^

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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby troed » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:12 pm

joska wrote:However, doing this is not without side-effects. E.g. switching from med- to low-rez half way down the screen worked fine under Hatari but not at all on my STM.


Don't forget to bug report, preferably with code ;)

(The "vertical scrolling dude" in {Closure} is med rez, with the text writer in low-rez. Runs the same in Hatari and target hw)

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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby joska » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:43 am

troed wrote:(The "vertical scrolling dude" in {Closure} is med rez, with the text writer in low-rez. Runs the same in Hatari and target hw)


Yes, once I debugged it on real hardware it also worked in Hatari. But the initial code that did work in Hatari did not work on real hardware.
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby joska » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:58 am

sjuktstarkgrogg wrote:I hear some mixed opinions whether it's better to do it directly on an Atari Emulator on PC and then test them out on the machine or do the entire coding on the Atari ST.


What's "better"? Only you can say that. Sure, it's "better" (faster, easier) to code everything using vasm or gcc or whatever with Eclipse on top and some emulator for debugging. But is it more fun? You'll have to figure that out yourself. Personally I enjoy doing it the old school way. However, I do cheat: Back in the day when I was playing around with DEGAS, STOS, Devpac etc I only had a single computer with 1Mb RAM and a single floppy. Now I have 12Mb RAM, mass storage and graphics card which speeds up the process considerably. However, if I had more money I could have had the same setup in 1990 so I don't feel bad about it :D
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Re: Going into demo creation in 2017?

Postby junosix » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:24 pm

Nothing wrong with using cross-development tools in my opinion, back in the day a lot of games were developed on cross-dev systems so it's not a new thing, just that the tools have changed. It's more about the end result and learning about the ST that matters rather than how you do it, and doesn't make it any more or less valid whichever method you go for.


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