Page 2 of 3

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:49 pm
by DrCoolZic
alexh wrote:...
Hi Udo,
...
Also, this custom format has no relation to the disk copy protection. I mean, there is a disk copy protection on Dragon Flight that is separated for the custom format. The custom track layout is not actually a protection because most ST software copiers would handle it without troubles. The protection is not in the sectors, is outside the sectors. I'm not sure how much you want to talk about this, so I'd prefer to avoid giving details without your authorization.

However, I consider that the most interesting aspect in Dragon's Flight protection, is the one present in the "Backup disks". It is exactly the same as in … some famous ST copy protected demo. It is a "pseudo" protection because, obviously, the protection can be created and copied in the ST itself. But the concept is quite unique and brilliant. Hats off to you (or to Michael, or to whoever came with the idea). Again, I'm intentionally avoiding being more specific.
Jorge

What is this "brilliant" protection?
How do you produce a "backup disk"?

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:18 pm
by DrCoolZic
Now about 11 sectors / track format

You will find some hopefully interesting information at http://info-coach.fr/atari/software/FD- ... 2B_formats
most of information is presented here including values used by superformat

I have analyzed many games with 11 S/T and most of them uses different values.

the normal 12x00 preamble is not really important. It is there to "quickly synchronize" the DPLL but in fact the WD1772 DPLL is pretty good at synchronizing on about anything quickly ...

The part that should not be too much shortened is the GAP between the ID and DATA. Whatever you put there it has to be at least 27 bytes otherwise there is a huge chance that reading wont work.
Here are for example the layout for two games
gunship-layout.PNG

chv2-layout.PNG


Here we have a different aproach: the inner gap is maintained at 34 bytes but the gap between sector is reduced to 2. So reading will work without problem but writing will probably result in overwriting next sector (i.e. read-only)
gunship-layout.PNG

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:08 am
by alexh
I will dig out my original Thalion Sound Demo disk soon.

What is the best dumping technique?

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:02 am
by Stefan jL
Oh.. you have an copy of Thalion sound disk.. personally so do i would like to get my hands on an SCP copy of it so i can use it on both my ST and Amiga :)

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:37 am
by Steven Seagal
@DrCoolZic

Steem v3.7 will support both Dragonflight and the Union Demo, the "protection" is discussed here:

http://ataristeven.t15.org/Steem_370_coming_soon2.htm

and here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26433

Indeed, there's data outside of sectors.

And if somebody has the original Overscan Demos...

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:31 pm
by npomarede
Steven Seagal wrote:And if somebody has the original Overscan Demos...

Hi

I'm not sure the Overscan Demos by Paulo were protected in the same way games were protected ; what was particular about this demo is that the disk is formatted with 82 tracks and 11 sectors per track. 11 sectors per track is known to be not reliable in all cases, so it required a good copy program and perhaps many attemps before succeding, but apart from that I think it was standard.
I would need to see if I still have the floppy of this demos for my STF.

Nicolas

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:07 pm
by DrCoolZic
Steven Seagal wrote:@DrCoolZic

Steem v3.7 will support both Dragonflight and the Union Demo, the "protection" is discussed here:

http://ataristeven.t15.org/Steem_370_coming_soon2.htm

and here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26433

Indeed, there's data outside of sectors.

And if somebody has the original Overscan Demos...

I have to refresh my memory on DragonFlight ...

but Union Demo works fine on Steem 3.6.4
I do not see any reason why it would not work. There was a bug in Aufit 0.4c (now fixed in the non-released version) that was not decoding certain sequence of sync mark correctly.
But when written correctly the stx file seems to work on Steem
Attached stx generated with latest Aufit

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:22 pm
by Maartau
:cheers:

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:30 pm
by Steven Seagal
DrCoolZic wrote:
Steven Seagal wrote:@DrCoolZic

Steem v3.7 will support both Dragonflight and the Union Demo, the "protection" is discussed here:

http://ataristeven.t15.org/Steem_370_coming_soon2.htm

and here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26433

Indeed, there's data outside of sectors.

And if somebody has the original Overscan Demos...

I have to refresh my memory on DragonFlight ...

but Union Demo works fine on Steem 3.6.4
I do not see any reason why it would not work. There was a bug in Aufit 0.4c (now fixed in the non-released version) that was not decoding certain sequence of sync mark correctly.
But when written correctly the stx file seems to work on Steem
Attached stx generated with latest Aufit


Hi, please read the page I indicated. Sure the Union Demo worked in all versions of Steem but not the included copier by TEX.
There's a STW version of the Union Demo, which means some aspects of WD1772 are emulated.

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:33 pm
by Steven Seagal
npomarede wrote:
Steven Seagal wrote:And if somebody has the original Overscan Demos...

Hi

I'm not sure the Overscan Demos by Paulo were protected in the same way games were protected ; what was particular about this demo is that the disk is formatted with 82 tracks and 11 sectors per track. 11 sectors per track is known to be not reliable in all cases, so it required a good copy program and perhaps many attemps before succeding, but apart from that I think it was standard.
I would need to see if I still have the floppy of this demos for my STF.

Nicolas


I think I've read (on another thread, I can't find it here) that it's a custom format with 1024byte sectors, which was handled by ACopy.

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:11 am
by DrCoolZic
Steven Seagal wrote:Sure the Union Demo worked in all versions of Steem but not the included copier by TEX.
There's a STW version of the Union Demo, which means some aspects of WD1772 are emulated.

I need to read your yet another image format(s) for Atari ...
Is the Union demo disk produced by the TEX copier different from the original???
As it seems that the stx image is run successfully by Steem it seems that they are the same?

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:58 am
by npomarede
DrCoolZic wrote:
Steven Seagal wrote:Sure the Union Demo worked in all versions of Steem but not the included copier by TEX.
There's a STW version of the Union Demo, which means some aspects of WD1772 are emulated.

I need to read your yet another image format(s) for Atari ...
Is the Union demo disk produced by the TEX copier different from the original???
As it seems that the stx image is run successfully by Steem it seems that they are the same?

Copies made from the union demo's built-in copier are the same as the demo version.
They uses some special bytes that are difficult to copy with a standard copy program, but when you know exactly how to create the track with "write track" command, there's no problem to copy the disk.

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:09 pm
by DrCoolZic
The only thing I have found is in track 41 the famous C2 0B CDB4 F7
union.png

Does this justify a new format? Is Hatari going to support it?

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:13 pm
by npomarede
DrCoolZic wrote:The only thing I have found is in track 41 the famous C2 0B CDB4 F7
union.png

Does this justify a new format? Is Hatari going to support it?

Any new format can always be added if the programer finds it fun to implement :)
I agree this might be a corner case, but why not. As for supporting it under Hatari, I don't think so.
I already added a .wd1772 format to store delta modifications to an STX file (by storing written sectors/tracks), if a new format is to be added, it would be a very low level MFM that would be able to load SCP files or KF files for example.

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:26 pm
by Steven Seagal
npomarede wrote:I agree this might be a corner case, but why not.


Supporting programs is no corner case.

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:11 pm
by npomarede
Steven Seagal wrote:
npomarede wrote:I agree this might be a corner case, but why not.


Supporting programs is no corner case.

I meant about the Union Demo to be a corner case ; although writing tracks can be useful to save games in DragonFlight, I doubt many people will use the internal copier in the Union Demo to really duplicate an STX file of the Union Demo :)

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:24 am
by DrCoolZic
Actually you would do the same for dragonflight. You just need to create an stx image from backup disks, no need for stw format!
Unfortunately I cannot test it has the scp image published is not good enough?
I have created the 2 FD but when I try to create the backup disks it complains that the disk B is corrupted :(
I have asked Jim to create image of backup disks because I would be interested if you can use this in Hatari with the .wd1772

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:35 am
by DrCoolZic
Done!
Dragonfligh works great on Steem and Hatari see viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26433&p=265915#p265915

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:30 pm
by DrCoolZic
Nicolas can you try dragonflight using the provided stx and procedure viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26433&p=265915#p265915 on Hatari and saving game using the .wd1772 ?

Edit
I do not succeed to start Dragonflight on Hatari ? Normally on Steem (or rela Atari) I wait for the Thalion screen and press the space bar to start the game. Under Hatari nothing happen?

Edit Edit
I thought my stx file was wrong so I tried the one from Internet. Same does not start?

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:27 pm
by npomarede
Hi
Hatari 1.8 works with both versions of dragon flight available at atarimania (uk and german), I used tos 1.04FR and 2MB RAM.
I reach the thalion screen, then press space and game loads.
I also tried your stx files, they load fine, I insert disk b when asked, then it asks for disk a again and tell there's no saved game on the disk.
Did you save a real game ?

Edit : I misread your description. So in fact I started with disk-a, started a new game, inserted disk-b-backup, then the game wrote 6 sectors (sector 1 to 5 are 1024 bytes and sector 6 is 512 bytes) and the game started. So this looks ok to me.

Nicolas

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:37 am
by DrCoolZic
OK I found the problem :)

In order for the game to start you have to disable the joystick

now it works. On your version with .wd1772 are you able to save game?

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:34 pm
by npomarede
DrCoolZic wrote:OK I found the problem :)
In order for the game to start you have to disable the joystick

Do you use a real joystick, or joystick emulation using the keyboard ? When I use keyboard emulation, I don't see any problem.
I didn't try with a real usb joystick, but maybe yours is sending data even when not used (autofire ?), which would fill the IKBD at a critical time in the game's intro ?
Nicolas

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:11 pm
by DrCoolZic
npomarede wrote:Do you use a real joystick, or joystick emulation using the keyboard ? When I use keyboard emulation, I don't see any problem.
I didn't try with a real usb joystick, but maybe yours is sending data even when not used (autofire ?), which would fill the IKBD at a critical time in the game's intro ?
Nicolas

I use keyboard emulation. But fire emulation was set to space and this is probably why it conflict.
I changed fire to left control and now it works with joystick use keyboard.

Jean

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected de

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:31 pm
by npomarede
Did you try saving a game ? I never really played dragon flight, how are we supposed to save during a game ?

Re: List of ST/STE demos that can't be imaged (=protected demos)

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:45 am
by Brume
Have updated this thread: three demos are dumped, but two needs to be saved.
Please help us to find the original disks of The Opening Demo & The Thalion Sound Demo!
Thanks in advance.